Production Thoughts

[hubb]

i think im confusing some bits here

like fidelity, headroom, dynamic range etc

but if we use vinyl as an example of something that sounds ‘better’ like hardware
vs CDs and digital

then some of the destructive effects that you will almost always have to do, in trying to control shiz, will almost always sound better if u try to retain as much of ‘real life conditions as you can’ - - - in case of breakbeats this ‘real life condition’ would be the analogue environment these physical sounds were recorded in - over the effect digital plugs would impart on it

[mks]

Compressors and EQs are tools.

Use the right tool for the job needed.

There is no template of how it should be done.

Compressors maybe make more sense when mic’ing up drums and recording guitars.

[hubb]

@mks

Use the right tool for the job needed.

Scissors on reel 2 reel breakbeats

[mks]

I used to have 3 reel to reel tape machines to make tape loops but I moved a lot and they were too heavy to lug around.

[MARSEN]

i agree with a lot of the essence of what you’re saying and i think as often is the case we’re partly talking at cross purposes but not exactly disagreeing i think there’s a huge amount to be said for restraint and not just compressing things the loudest they could be (for example) because then as you said, everything has to stack up against it and everything has to be maximized the same way. for some tracks and styles that’s the goal. but sometimes you don’t necessarily get the best results that way and I struggle with that balance a lot myself. i agree that eq and compression are generally better the less you need to use them. but i do think they can produce a “better” mix - subjectively speaking, which is all we can really say about mixes - when the use is appropriate to the mix style and goals. i struggle to imagine why you would specifically need an analog eq to hpf a ride cymbal at 400hz, for example, and that could still be a good mix decision rather than an artistic one. there is definitely character to eqs but different digital eqs do sound different from each other these days too. anyways

you’re right that balance and restraint are maybe the hardest part of mixing and that can only come through large amounts of experience. eq and compression are both powerful tools and knowing when not to use them can be as important as how to use them. and of course saturation on drums is the shit, definitely

[sleeps]

That Optical masterclass is
Watched it a couple times.

[hubb]

fully agree

its only that habits tend to inform your production so in terms of restraints, using things that can yield a slightly less satisfactory result can be a slippery slope

gotta keep up on those toes if you want to fuck photek over sometime lol

[MARSEN]

yeah true, really feeling it lately how hard you have to keep working to approach really high levels of craft

[sleeps]

I keep getting random spikes in db from this plug-in which makes the channel automute.
Can’t figure out why this is happening…

That’s ridiculous. My channel fader is set about -28db

It doesn’t happen during playback or track construction, but every time I close and then open the track: boom automute. I then have to fuck about turning the plug-in on and off and switching the channel between solo and un-solo until it decides to work again.

Anyone experienced this?
The plug-in in question is Dubstation2 which is a sick delay effect but it appears to have this deal-breaking bug.

[Harkat]

I think Hubbs perspective here makes a lot of sense but when I’m staring at a mixdown and just want things to hit harder and louder it’s such a natural conclusion to go for compression and limiting

You could probably create a more ideal mix by going up the signal chain and making sure every “core” part of the sound is made as clear and defined as possible before smudging anything with blunt tools like compression - but workflow wise I find this extremely daunting.

With that kinda twiddling of the core elements at a late stage in creation, it’s so easy to compromise something crucial in there. Like a small adjustment to some ADSR envelope modulating everything can completely take out the emotion of a tune lol. I think I’d rather just squeeze everything into the suitcase and catch the plane if you get my analogy.

[hubb]

theres HUGE difference from genre to genre too

if you got enormous 808 and kicks you might simply have to side-chain and use buss-compression to even approximate and stand up to the engineering that goes on in a 2021 rap beat

where fx the aesthetic in golden era/smug retro jungle and like omni trio, source direct or optical d&b production - comes from this thing where you only make sounds that translate well to vinyl or doesn’t force the speakercone in old systems to skip around,
where everything is redlining or clipping instead of compressed, harsher elements are turned mono and so on -that you dont have to do now itb, but also creates a specific sense of space

theres a lot of seemingly random ‘puff-up’ stereo stuff going on after the brickwall limiting and loudness over dynamics thing took over in dance music too - so you could argue modern stuff is crammed in other respects than just compression

vocals are puffed up and stereoed and fills up almost half the space in some pop/rap now

its all good but it is a bit like how video compares to 16 milli milli ime

[syrup]

slap a limiter on that
doesn’t have to be doing anything during normal playback, but it will stop those spikes

idk why it is doing that, can’t personally seen anything that would cause some crazy feedback or sth

[mks]

I always have an emergency limiter on my master channel.

I have learned my lesson several times.

It doesn’t do anything except for when things go WRONG.

[Paralytik]

Managed to create a feedback loop in Reason, nothing broke but it easily could have. Also it’s really easy to create feedback loops in Reason when you’re just patching away lol.

[sleeps]

Reaper’s most simple limiter at the front of the FX chain on that channel seems to have sorted it.

Edit. Spoke to soon. No idea why it’s doing this.

[syrup]

well, you have to put it in after the delay if you want to catch any peaks it ends up creating

[sleeps]

Ah fucks sake.
Haha.
Fresh pair of eyes and all that!!

[cyclopian]

Maryanne Amacher speaking at Ars Electronica. Linz, Austria 1989

[cyclopian]

do you guys know of anyone living now and also talking/writing/illustrating/emoting about these sorts of topics these days?

There seems to be a sort of dead zone in the realm in terms of people really pushing crossover perceptual studies and creativity. Everything I see now is just how something is made, but not how it is perceived and the exploration of that, or questions more “simple” than that like humans responding to 3d artworks compared to physical ones or silence being even more impactful as things seem to get more dense etc etc…

The only good books about dubstep were written in the 60s and 70s…

[hubb]

i dont think there is

thats what forums are for

but having said that, i always try to tell people all these forms of expressions are the same thing.
you can project ideas from litterary theory, cooking shows, architecture, art scholars on different forms and so on -towards dance music ‘theory’

but maybe we should feel lucky that it doesn’t happen often or too much - because in that sense music often remains ‘untouched’ or at least, is not as negatively influenced by academia as all the other art forms tend to get.

music journalists always talk about the setting or social conditions to try to bring it to a political level
and as you say production interviews always become how tos or recipe-like
(mostly because basicly all music journos suck)

but you can always just watch some art docs on youtube on like impressionism, expressionism, nouveau or bauhaus or whatever and steal those ideas

it seems to me its often because people that dont make music seems to believe the way music can invoke imagery or transport people listening into a zone or conjure abstract feelings and tones -is more important than experiencing the sorta physical or ‘‘architectural’’ or statuesque ‘properties’ or forms music also has

as an example a ‘banger’. is a banger because it stands infront of you like a big thing that bangs
like that is physical imo

a banger is not some tones that bring you to a field of abstract orange colours or tones

its more like a fuck off building or car or whatever lol

it seems the evocative or dreamy side to music, because that is more unique to music, gets talked about more - and maybe that is a good thing

because dance music is still not taken super seriously, and can remain this ritual thing where we bring bangers to life and bang

if a film bangs - it often lacks that emotive, evocative side

but music doesnt seem to have lost that side yet, eventhough dubstep tried lol

i could talk about this for ever
but i hope it makes a little sense

i think there isnt much talk like the thing you’re asking for, because music isnt ‘tainted yet’ largescale